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 SC2 Gameplay Mod

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Achilles.42
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PostSubject: SC2 Gameplay Mod   Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:53 pm

As the title suggests, the map im creating isn't an arcade/custom game in the traditional sense, and is instead a varient on classic SC2 gameplay.

I got inspired to do this cus pat and I played a similar mod "starbow" which is supposed to be a "sequal to broodwar" and basically combines elements from both.

What i wanna do is similar, but i think i'll end up making more changes to the units and mechanics that'll reward a different play style than sc2.
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This is something i wanted to do and started to do in wc3, but never got very far cus i didn't like regular wc3 nearly as much as sc2.
And just like bacon said, im doing this cus i enjoy it, not cus i expect/want tons of people to play it.
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So far, im buffing workers HP to 200  and reduced their attack to 1 to make them harder to harass.
For now this is fine, but i think another disincentive would be good to stop people from using them with their army. Maybe make it so they can only attack within 30 range of a friendly Town Hall (attack could be increased from 1 in that case).
Or maybe make it so they start "starving" if they leave that range.

I also buffed scouting. Made reapers and observers faster with more HP, and both cost 25/0 (m/g). And also reduced the reapers attack to 1 (no double pistol action any more). I think i'll also make the observer a gateway unit, but not one that can be warped in.
And overlords now start with speed.

------

I want to add a creep mechanic for all 3 races. And i also want creep to be automated.
Because, i feel like creep is one of the best mechanics in the game, but spreading creep is one of the worst. If anyone has any ideas how to do this, it would be appreciated. (either how to make creep look good for the other races or how to automate it).
(obviously for terran and toss it wouldn't be the same models as zergs creep. and i'd probably make it so it was only zergs creep that stopped building production from other races).
The way automated creep would work is that by a certain time in the game, depending on map size, both creep sides would meet and stop spreading. However, whenever you push with detection you'd be able to push back any races creep, allowing yours to continue to spread on the map.

It could also be that you modify the restriction on creeps spread range, so that it couldn't spread within a certain distance of an opponents creep, which would create a 'no-mans-land' where neither side had vision.

Im also going to redo how cloak works.
Im either going to make it work like windwalk did in wc3 (attacking breaks invisibility) or remove it completely.
I think DT's would be a cool unit if while they were attacking they actually moved slower than workers, but with cloak enabled they'd be able to run faster. That way players would only take a lot of damage when they didn't react. Idk what i'd do with banshees.
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An idea that i havn't decided on yet is increasing the amount of minerals in each patch, and also decreasing the amount thats mined (possibly all the way to 2.
If i did this, then it'd also be requisite to reduce the supply limit on workers (either to .5, .33, or .25)
The idea, would be to make bases last much longer, but also require more expanding to get the equivalent of a 3 base economy in regular sc2.

And a seperate idea, but one that would mesh well with the first, is making all Town Hall structures some sort of defensive ability. Either, something like the ''call to arms'' in wc3, or Planetary nexuses in sc2.
--------

Also, im planning to add in both new custom units and units from broodwar, so any suggestions and ideas would be cool.

And any mechanics change suggestions would also be welcome.

Right now im going with "Chill Craft" as the name.
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PostSubject: Re: SC2 Gameplay Mod   Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:23 pm

Achilles.42 wrote:
So far, im buffing workers HP to 200  and reduced their attack to 1 to make them harder to harass.
For now this is fine, but i think another disincentive would be good to stop people from using them with their army. Maybe make it so they can only attack within 30 range of a friendly Town Hall (attack could be increased from 1 in that case).
Or maybe make it so they start "starving" if they leave that range.
You should give them 0 attack, and then have an ability at the main building that activates the attack of workers within its range for a time span, also the attack should be greater then 1 while its active since its only for a limited time

And 200hp is way too much cause people could cannon rush for example or proxy barracks and bunker in your base and killing the worker would be nearly impossible, maybe only let them have extra hp when they are within range of a friendly main building (including allies)

Achilles.42 wrote:
I also buffed scouting. Made reapers and observers faster with more HP, and both cost 25/0 (m/g). And also reduced the reapers attack to 1 (no double pistol action any more). I think i'll also make the observer a gateway unit, but not one that can be warped in.
And overlords now start with speed.
I think rather then making changes to existing units you should make new units that are specifically for early game scouting, obs is meant to detect and observe in secret, reaper is meant to do a bit of harass while getting info about the base, so changing those completely probably wouldnt work, observers would be OP with these changes

For zerg you can add an ability to overlords that lets them spawn a fast moving flyer with no attack for 25 mins
For toss you can have pylons warp in something that has the same stats but is protoss themed
For terran you can have supply depots create the same kind of thing

Each overlord/pylon/supply depot can only have 1 of these things out at a time and attacking units will ignore them unless they are the only thing around to attack (that way you cant spam them and use them as a meat shield)

Achilles.42 wrote:
I want to add a creep mechanic for all 3 races. And i also want creep to be automated.
Because, i feel like creep is one of the best mechanics in the game, but spreading creep is one of the worst. If anyone has any ideas how to do this, it would be appreciated. (either how to make creep look good for the other races and how to automate it).
(obviously for terran and toss it wouldn't be the same models as zergs creep. and i'd probably make it so it was only zergs creep that stopped building production from other races).
Toss could have pylon power as their "creep" it spreads out from nexus's until it reaches a certain range away from the nexus (or maybe just the starting nexus), pylon power would power buildings and allow warpin like normal but you would still need pylons for power since the spread is over time and uncontrolled by the player so if you want power in a specific place at a specific time you need to make a pylon there, and when it gets pushed back actual pylons would be required to power the area that got pushed back

Terran "creep" would have to be some sort of constant scan emanating from command centers (or just the starting command center) that grows over time like the others, it would need to provide some benefit like toss "creep" (power) and zerg creep (unit speed) does and i cant think of anything that makes sense, the only thing would be that it provides constant detection in the area it covers, but that seems OP, so maybe units within the area are given the ability to detect stuff at close range, so your marines (or any unit inside the scan area) would become very short range detectors while its in the area, except that your changing cloak too so that probably wont be helpful

Achilles.42 wrote:
The way automated creep would work is that by a certain time in the game, depending on map size, both creep sides would meet and stop spreading. However, whenever you push with detection you'd be able to push back any races creep, allowing yours to continue to spread on the map.

It could also be that you modify the restriction on creeps spread range, so that it couldn't spread within a certain distance of an opponents creep, which would create a 'no-mans-land' where neither side had vision.
It would be better with no mans land, cause covering the whole map would be hard to make with multiple people and different maps, where as having it spread a certain distance from the main building would be easier to make and probably make more sense to people since thats how normal creep works

Achilles.42 wrote:
Im also going to redo how cloak works.
Im either going to make it work like windwalk did in wc3 (attacking breaks invisibility) or remove it completely.
I think DT's would be a cool unit if while they were attacking they actually moved slower than workers, but with cloak enabled they'd be able to run faster. That way players would only take a lot of damage when they didn't react. Idk what i'd do with banshees.
I dont see why cloak should be changed especially since people will be getting detection to push the "creep" back anyway, but if you really want to change it i would make it so the dt's/banshees/ghosts had much less hp while cloaked (maybe just have them take a lot of extra dmg while cloaked so the hp amount doesnt change between cloak and uncloak) but had no attack (or very little attack) while uncloaked, that way static defenses could just 1 or 2 shot them if they tried to harass when you were prepared or if you have a few ranged units nearby


Achilles.42 wrote:
An idea that i havn't decided on yet is increasing the amount of minerals in each patch, and also decreasing the amount thats mined (possibly all the way to 2.
If i did this, then it'd also be requisite to reduce the supply limit on workers (either to .5, .33, or .25)
The idea, would be to make bases last much longer, but also require more expanding to get the equivalent of a 3 base economy in regular sc2.
It would take forever to build anything if you did this, everything would take more then twice as long at 2 if everything costs the same, it would be impossible to get your first expansion before 10mins with this, even zerg would get his first expansion around 6mins with standard 15 hatch timing, you cant go main building first because you wont be able to afford workers from both places to actually mine from both places that early in the game so it would shut down early expand completely

In fact you wouldnt even be able to mine fast enough at the start of the game to make workers constantly, you would only have about 25 minerals after your first worker finishes, so you would have to start with double the number of workers just to be able to mine fast enough to make 1 worker at a time

And each mineral patch only supports 3 mining probes from it, so if they cost half the supply and you have double on each base they wont actually mine properly, 24 is the maximum each base can support, any more then that and the workers spend more time trying to find a patch they can mine from then they actually spend mining the patches, so you would have to add more patches rather than making each patch have more minerals

And even if you did what im saying, double the number of starting workers and double the number of patches, it ends up being the same as the normal game, but just having to make double the number of workers and the games would last much longer, since each new worker you make is less than half as effective as workers in the normal game, so even after doubling the starting workers mining would still be slower in the long term

Achilles.42 wrote:
And a seperate idea, but one that would mesh well with the first, is making all Town Hall structures some sort of defensive ability. Either, something like the ''call to arms'' in wc3, or Planetary nexuses in sc2.
I suggested what i wrote above before reading this part of your post, but yeah, call to arms is basically what i was talking about at the start, and is probably the best idea


Achilles.42 wrote:
Also, im planning to add in both new custom units and units from broodwar, so any suggestions and ideas would be cool.

And any mechanics change suggestions would also be welcome.
You should add an upgrade to supply depots and pylons to give them extra abilities like overlords get when upgraded to overseers, not the same type of ability, but just an ability
Like for toss it would repair shields for energy (like the old shield battery in bw), and supply depots can upgrade to give even more supply per depot (basically the same as supply call down, but without costing orbital energy, and they can still get the benefit of supply call down too)

All these changes make the overseers ability kindve weak, so maybe give them something else too, maybe buff the changeling so that it lives forever and if it spends long enough with the enemy's t1 unit(s) it becomes 1 of their units but under your control (with the ability to attack), you would have to check if that changeling has been within range of the enemy players t1 unit for X amount of time, like when it sees a terran and becomes a marine it needs to stay near a marine for a certain amount of time, probably 3 mins is long enough for it to gain the stats and attack of the enemy unit it took the shape of (that way people cant spam changelings and have an army, they still could but the other player would have to really not be paying attention for 3 mins for that to happen, 1 changeling is likely to go unnoticed for 3 mins though)

And make it so interceptors work more like locusts, where they are free and are built much faster but have a timed life, that might make carriers worth using

Add in reavers, lurkers, corsairs, diamondbacks, wraiths, and scourge

Give pheonix an upgrade to change its multilasers into 1 big attack (about as much dmg per shot as vikings with about the same attack speed) but it cant move and shoot while using it and it cant use its graviton beam after being upgraded (it should require a fleet beacon to upgrade)

Give tempest the stasis field ability that arbiters had from bw

Give high templar the maelstom ability that dark archons had from bw for 100 energy per cast (also put the amulet upgrade back in)

Give immortals an ability that lets them shoot up and turns off their strong shield ability (they can switch between the 2 at will with a cd, also they are basically dragoons at that point so no need to add dragoons too)

Give roaches an upgrade to morph them into baneling mortars, it requires a baneling nest and a lair, mortars can hold 3 banelings at a time, you load banelings into them like how you load medivacs, they fire like mortars and can go about 75% as far as siegtanks can fire, they can burrow but cant move or regen like roaches can, and they cant attack while burrowed

Give infester the ability to cast neural parasite while burrowed with an upgrade from the infestation pit (requires hive)

Give thors the ability to cliff jump with an upgrade from the fusion core (you can put the upgrade in the tech lab, but make the upgrade require a fusion core so people cant do proxy thor with thors that can go up cliffs)

Give widowmines the ability to transform into a unit that attacks without having to burrow but has a much weaker splash attack at the same range (the splash from its attack doesnt hurt friendly units so you would mainly use it when the enemy has units right on top of yours or to support hellbats with more dps), transforming between both modes would be much faster then hellbat or viking transformations
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PostSubject: Re: SC2 Gameplay Mod   Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:30 pm

pat1487 wrote:
Toss could have pylon power as their "creep" it spreads out from nexus's until it reaches a certain range away from the nexus (or maybe just the starting nexus), pylon power would power buildings and allow warpin like normal but you would still need pylons for power since the spread is over time and uncontrolled by the player so if you want power in a specific place at a specific time you need to make a pylon there, and when it gets pushed back actual pylons would be required to power the area that got pushed back
I love that. some form of 'mini pylons'  could be generated by the nexus that could be killed off with detection like normal creep.
Unless theres another way to facilitate pushing back creep.

pat1487 wrote:
Terran "creep" would have to be some sort of constant scan emanating from command centers (or just the starting command center) that grows over time like the others, it would need to provide some benefit like toss…and zerg creep...
The scan model is perfect.
Maybe the benefit could be the ''creep tumors'' (whatever there name would be) could repair mech units, so you could retreat your army to the back lines to repair. Im'a keep thinking about terran for that one tho, cus idk if both should regenerate HP.

pat1487 wrote:
It would be better with no mans land, cause covering the whole map would be hard to make with multiple people and different maps, where as having it spread a certain distance from the main building would be easier to make and probably make more sense to people since thats how normal creep works
Agreed. i think no mans land is important.
Maybe not make it forced into a certain ratio by a trigger like i was suggestion, but just make the creep spread a fixed amount, then you could  spread it manually after that.

pat1487 wrote:
And 200hp is way too much cause people could cannon rush for example or proxy barracks and bunker in your base and killing the worker would be nearly impossible, maybe only let them have extra hp when they are within range of a friendly main building (including allies)

i'll add something that invalidates rushes like that.
I was thinking about allowing 1-3 static defensive structures to be built for free at the start of the game (probably built from the nexus and limited by 30 range or something). Kinda like how in wc3 your first hero is free.
It'd also be an option to make workers do extra damage to workers, so that the extra HP wouldn't actually help in rushes.

pat1487 wrote:

I think rather then making changes to existing units you should make new units that are specifically for early game scouting, obs is meant to detect and observe in secret, reaper is meant to do a bit of harass while getting info about the base, so changing those completely probably wouldnt work, observers would be OP with these changes
I can always switch the skins and add back in the original versions. I think for now im going to make a lot of changes to existing units since its easier to then decide which ones to keep and which not. Kinda like how in starbow they took out colossus and other units.

\"pat1487 wrote:
I dont see why cloak should be changed
I've had a vendetta against cloak since the beginning
pat1487 wrote:
(maybe just have them take a lot of extra dmg while cloaked so the hp amount doesnt change between cloak and uncloak) but had no attack (or very little attack) while uncloaked, that way static defenses could just 1 or 2 shot them if they tried to harass when you were prepared or if you have a few ranged units nearby
That would definitely be good.
I like switching it to be like windwalk cuss in wc3 windwalk felt balanced. it could give you a solid edge, but it virtually never gave inset wins.

pat1487 wrote:

In fact you wouldnt even be able to mine fast enough at the start of the game to make workers constantly, you would only have about 25 minerals after your first worker finishes, so you would have to start with double the number of workers just to be able to mine fast enough to make 1 worker at a time
yeah, the 2 mins thing was a dumb idea. Scrap that.

What about this: workers mine 3, 4, or 5 mins per load, but the Town hall can be built/starts right next to the mineral patches, so 8 workers would be the equivalent of 16 saturation (most efficient) and 16 workers would be the equivalent of 24 (max saturation). idk what i'd do with the gas.
------------------------------

I like the shield battery and supply depot upgrade.

pat1487 wrote:
And make it so interceptors work more like locusts, where they are free and are built much faster but have a timed life, that might make carriers worth using
thats interesting, i like that.

And all those broodwar units will be good to add in.

Would the Pheonix's new weapon be toggleable once researched?

What was the maelstrom? and definitely add back in amulet

I like the immortals second attack.

pat1487 wrote:
Give roaches an upgrade to morph them into baneling mortars, it requires a baneling nest and a lair, mortars can hold 3 banelings at a time, you load banelings into them like how you load medivacs, they fire like mortars and can go about 75% as far as siegtanks can fire, they can burrow but cant move or regen like roaches can, and they cant attack while burrowed
haha, thats awesome.

and idk how we've been playing this game without reaper throes for this long.
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PostSubject: Re: SC2 Gameplay Mod   Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:22 pm

Achilles.42 wrote:
What about this: workers mine 3, 4, or 5 mins per load, but the Town hall can be built/starts right next to the mineral patches, so 8 workers would be the equivalent of 16 saturation (most efficient) and 16 workers would be the equivalent of 24 (max saturation). idk what i'd do with the gas.
I dont think the math works out like that, it would probably be faster then normal if it was right next to the main building, even at 3 per trip
It seemed like you wanted to slow it down, you could just have it collect 1 less per trip (maybe 2) and it would require people to get slightly better economies if your goal was to slow it down or make 1 basing harder

Achilles.42 wrote:
Would the Pheonix's new weapon be toggleable once researched?
No it would be an upgrade to the unit, not a transformation, corsair does the phoenix's job better than the phoenix so no point in keeping the phoenix the way it is if you add corsair, you could just make the new weapon the default weapon and remove its moving laser attack completely, which would change its role to be quick aa

Achilles.42 wrote:
What was the maelstrom? and definitely add back in amulet
It was an ability that froze units in place, so they couldnt attack or move but still took dmg from being attacked, it would be great to combo with storm which is why i said put it on HT (make it an upgrade at the templar archives of course)
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PostSubject: Re: SC2 Gameplay Mod   Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:42 am

No the math doesn't work out.
i just meant the first 8 workers all add the same amount of minerals per minute. and the next 8 would add a reduced amount. Just like the first 16 do compared to the next 8 in normal game play.
But just slightly reducing it is more elegant.

Im still not sure what i'll do to change the economy. assuming i do.
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PostSubject: Re: SC2 Gameplay Mod   Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:20 pm

im not sure if you this is what initiated your interest in this or not but...
extension mods
this would mesh perfectly with that.

my main reason for posting this is that extension mods are really cool for those interested in sc2 but not keeping up with it

an extension mod is like a custom map without the map component. basically you provide a framework for a map rather than the map itself.
so using this you can:
1. customize unit data however you want
2. customize static triggers. a static trigger is any trigger that doesn't directly reference a specific instance of a game. the "melee win" trigger is a static trigger since it relies on a generalized condition that applies to any set of players in any game. region kill for a maze is not static because it references a specific condition that involves specific regions in a specific map
3. probably more but i can't explore it

a fun extension mod blizzard made is "Wandering Minerals" where mineral fields literally wander the map like critters (still harvestable)

from the screenshots it looks really easy to select which extension you want to use. you select a mod when hosting a map. anyone who joins automatically plays using that extension
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PostSubject: Re: SC2 Gameplay Mod   Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:15 pm

I assumed that this was his goal for this since he talked about this map after the features for 2.1 were announced
But yeah, if that wasnt what you were going to do ach, it is what you should do
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PostSubject: Re: SC2 Gameplay Mod   Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:08 am

Yeah, extension mod makes the most sense.
idk what the difference between that and doing a regular map is though in the editor.
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PostSubject: Re: SC2 Gameplay Mod   Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:42 pm

Quote :
I assumed that this was his goal for this since he talked about this map after the features for 2.1 were announced
i did too but then when i was reading his ideas i realized he probably had no idea this existed. but okay, pat, you can be a hipster

Quote :
idk what the difference between that and doing a regular map is though in the editor.
i talked about it a little. you just cant reference anything game-specific. UI-wise i can only guess. bare minimum it would be in the form: export your map's data editor table as an Extension Mod.
making an extension mod only requires some of the tools that making a full map requires. so its kinda easier but really its just more specific.
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